Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

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Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:14 am

...I've tried to do it with midi notes, it works (with sonar) but I need a shift key to use them, and then when the shift key is on my alphatrack don't works...

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:31 am

I'll have to look into this. I actually didn't think that sending hotkeys using MIDI would even work. Just to be clear, you mean sending things like "Shift-K", "Shift-M", right?

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:53 am

Yes, that's it.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:00 am

ok, cool.

I'll have to look into that to make sure it's possible via MIDI. I've added it to the list of features though Smile

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:09 am

Great ! Hope there's a possibility to do it.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  coupe70 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:16 pm

This might be something to implement in a native MIDI solution without the need
for Pure Data. Such a solution would be one of my top feature wishes.

I have to refer to TouchOSC again, because it offers a lot of different ways to
connect and transmit.

OSC was only transmitted wireless, because iOS does not allow apps to transfer
data via USB.

For MIDI there are several ways.
1) CoreMIDI wireless which was received natively on a Mac or with rtpMIDI for PC.
2) Wired via the MIDI Mobilizer interface for iOS devices which uses a proprietary format but then sends real MIDI on a MIDI cable
3) Wired via other MIDI interfaces using CoreMIDI
4) Wireless to a small client program called TouchOSC Bridge sitting in the taskbar. No idea what format is transmitted, but this little
client opens a virtual MIDI port and outputs the correct MIDI data. TouchOSC and Bridge find each other very easily via Bonjour.
That was a big gamechanger, because it was configuration free and you didn't have to run big modular environments
and load some templates like in Pure Data anymore.

As far as I understand there is no standard like CoreMIDI for Android. And there are are no hardware MIDI interfaces working
with Android devices. So that leaves version number 4. It's great, because you are not bound to or in need of an official
standard in the OS. You can transmit whatever format you want to the client app, because your own client app translates
the incoming data to MIDI on the computer.

And that's where you could quite easily implement keystrokes, too.
You assign one or more keystrokes to a controller in a layout, transmit it in your own format to the computer and the
client generates the keystroke on the computer. That's btw exactely what was planned for TouchOSC Bridge before
the development stopped. Wink





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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:34 pm

That option is a good idea and technically, it will work.

However, that technique is extremely unreliable. Here's why:

The client receives the command from DAWOSC and converts the command to the proper keystrokes. It then sends those keystrokes out to Windows. Windows then sends those keystrokes to the window that has the focus. If a different program has focus, or a different screen in your DAW has the focus, then those keystrokes might do nothing or something unexpected.

Keyboard and mouse macro recorders use the same principle, which it why they're not that reliable.

The only way this kind of thing would work 100% reliably is if the client is "connected" to the DAW directly.

Hope I explained that properly!

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  coupe70 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:49 pm

Admin wrote:
The client receives the command from DAWOSC and converts the command to the proper keystrokes. It then sends those keystrokes out to Windows. Windows then sends those keystrokes to the window that has the focus. If a different program has focus, or a different screen in your DAW has the focus, then those keystrokes might do nothing or something unexpected.

Yes, but as you said this is how all the little helpers like Bome MIDI Translator, GlovePIE, Auto it! etc work
and this is pretty acceptable. Furthermore it is the same behaviour as when you use a shortcut on
your keyboard and have the wrong window in focus - so this is what every computer user is used to and I
wouldn't consider it a problem.


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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:59 pm

I definitely won't build a program that's guaranteed to not work 100% of the time.

In the case of DAWOSC, when a user presses a button that sends a hotkey, the expected action in the DAW should ALWAYS happen. It's actually considered poor software design if a program doesn't produce the same expected results every time.

So the bottom line is that I'll try to find a way to do this that'll work every single time, regardless of what program or window has the focus Very Happy

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  coupe70 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:29 am

Admin wrote:It's actually considered poor software design if a program doesn't produce the same expected results every time.

But it does - it passes a keystroke to the OS 100% of the time!
And what happens then is not poor design of your software, it's expected behaviour of the OS.
Every software dealing with the sending of hotkeys works this way, I wouldn't consider them all
poorly designed. And I never heard anyone complaining in the forums.

What would it be for ? For using Play/Stop when working in another app ?
You can usually MIDI map that.

I really wouldn't worry about that and waste ressources on it...

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:00 am

A typical user would expect that when they press a button in an app, it ALWAYS does what it's supposed to do. I know I would. If it didn't, and the developer is fully aware of that fact, then it's poor design.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  coupe70 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:39 am

Of course I see what you mean, but I can't really see a practical use for it.
And I don't see how this should be achieved for EVERY app.

And I am not a fan of software behaviour that does not comply with
the OS standard behaviour.

When using a shortcut on your keyboard - wouldn't you expect the shortcut
to affect the window you're currently working in ? For me DAWOSC should not
be seen bound to a certain app, but to the OS.

I for example would expect a simple copy & paste from one window to another
to work - with your approach it wouldn't. If I work with Reason rewired to Live
and want to use different hotkeys in the two apps it wouldn't work if the client
was bound to one of the apps.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would recommend to discuss this with other users.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:48 am

The bottom line is that when you're using DAWOSC on an Android device, you're expecting it to work like an app. When you're in Windows and you send a hotkey, your expectations are different.

So, again, I'm not going to use this method. Once I get around to implementing this (which won't be fore awhile), I'll explore other methods that are failsafe.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  coupe70 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:56 am

Admin wrote:when you're using DAWOSC on an Android device, you're expecting it to work like an app.
When you're in Windows and you send a hotkey, your expectations are different.

PERSONALLY I'm expecting it to show exactely the same behaviour no matter from where I trigger the shortcut.
I'm expecting controller buttons mapped to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to work in Live, Reason, Photoshop and Wordpad
whenever I'm switching between these apps.
Whenever I use an app specific shortcut I only use it when I'm in this specific app (with focus on it).

I'll shut up now, but you should really optain more user opinions, this is a major decision...




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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:16 am

I'm expecting controller buttons mapped to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to work in Live, Reason, Photoshop and Wordpad
whenever I'm switching between these apps.
Whenever I use an app specific shortcut I only use it when I'm in this specific app (with focus on it).

I agree with that.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 pm

Ok, so if I understand you right, you're no longer saying you want to send specific hotkey commands to a specific DAW. What you really want is to be able to send any hotkey command to your computer and let your computer deal with it (ie send it to the active program, whatever that may be).

is that right?

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Absolutely. A more open way I think.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:34 pm

oh...ok....then I take back what I said!! lol!!

This change won't happen for quite awhile though because I have to build a full client for this that works on Windows and Macs.

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Re: Send hotkeys with Dawosc...

Post  Gildas on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:08 am

I've tried to use key stroke / midi notes and bome's midi translator between... and it works well ! So I can work on a layout using midi notes now, and a lot of key strokes, cool. The next challenge is to try to translate messages froms the alphatracks to dawosc, something like > dawosc send midi / ACT in sonar receives, execute and send infos to alphatracks (which can receive midi return, not like generic midi) and then alphatracks (in ACT mode so) sends to Dawosc to get the bi directional...

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